Curse

Lykan · May 07, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Yes, I would agree. But why? Who asked you to "spend time" on HA in the first place?

You broke it and now you're asking the players for whom HA was the whole game, not just one small part, to be patient because fixing what you broke is not on top of your priorities.

/clap

Nothing else needs to be said.

Yichi · May 07, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkRaider

A few days ago, my guild and I were in halls playing [Meow] and [Cry] in KOTH. Inconveniently, a member of our backline was gone and holding was an impossible task against [Meow]'s paraway and [Cry]'s 2-warrior balanced. What happened? We outspike Meow's backline and help Cry win. Why? Because they played paraway and we dislike that build. Simple as that.

This is EXACTICALLY why 3-way killcount should be eliminated in HA. Because of idiotic comments and playstyles like this.

Thailii Monkey · May 07, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

This is EXACTICALLY why 3-way killcount should be eliminated in HA. Because of idiotic comments and playstyles like this.

Agreed, and to be honest I would take anything over kill count right now.

Gaile Gray · May 07, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Yes, I would agree. But why? Who asked you to "spend time" on HA in the first place? You broke it and now you're asking the players for whom HA was the whole game, not just one small part, to be patient because fixing what you broke is not on top of your priorities.

Riiight, Alleji, and we all know the HA community was all buttercups and rainbows before we "broke it." *searches wildly for a rolls eyes emote* Settles for a smilie.

The HA community is not "The HA community;" it's really many smaller groups, call it "The HA communities," if you will. All players have a strong opinion about what's good and what's right and what needs to get changed--sooner rather than later--in Heroes' Ascent. Keep in mind we listen, but keep in mind that the player base will not make the final design decisions. The design team is looking at HA, and I do believe, as I said earlier, that changes will come. But you should know that the changes may not be 100% what you're wanting; not 100% what you think is best. That's because there are tens of thousands of other HA players, and every one of them has an opinion, and there honestly isn't a single "This is absolutely the right way to go" path.

If the needed changes were easy to settle upon, they would have been made a long time ago. The changes that were made months ago were at player suggestion. The changes back to 8v8, and other changes, also were at player suggestion. And the ultimate design changes will also be suggested by players, but by all players with a wide variety of opinions. (You can see the differences of opinion in this very thread.) In the end, some sort of middle ground will be sought, and captured, to make HA the best that it can be for the majority of players.

evil joo · May 07, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Hi Gaile,

It is not that you guys broke it, but the skills were broken in the first place when this game was release on April 28, 2005. Do you remember when healing seed & life transfer lasted for 20+ seconds? Mesmer skills such as Energy drain and Energy tap can drain 35 + energy from a target, and lets not get into IWAY, the spamming of hundreds of spirits, and the days of smiting, etc etc … (and the skill abuse goes on and on-- LOLs @ NightFall skills)

When the game was released, people were excited; hence there were so many players in HA. Months after months of skills abuse (skills imbalance +overpowered skills), Anet finally realized that these skills were causing a major problem, and nerfed it.

The first batch that was fed up with this was the Koreans (majority of them have given up on HA and Guildwars altogether), followed by everyone else that has moved on to GvG, and the result of this is the small HA community you are referring to Gaile.

However, after 2 years of rants and rave from the PvP community, this game actually looks more balance than what it used to be. Unfortunately, no game is perfect, but you guys have listened to the community and have done your best to fix the broken skills you guys created.

Of course, I have given up on HA already when my friend introduced me to the thrill of chest running. Yes, I am now 100% buttercups and rainbow!! oHHh yeaaaaaaaaa~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Yes, I would agree. But why? Who asked you to "spend time" on HA in the first place?

You broke it and now you're asking the players for whom HA was the whole game, not just one small part, to be patient because fixing what you broke is not on top of your priorities.

/agree

Edit: You need to come chest run with me tonight bro.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 07, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Reverting HA back to the OLD will do nothing good for it. It probably would be even more stagnant than it is now with kill count. There are just too many newly introduced defensive skills that would make holding just as bad as 3,2,1. With all these new skills I always thought a bunch should be withheld from certain PVP game play based on the area. Since that won't happen why be bothered with these threads? ANET knows what has been done to GW, and what needs to be done, GW2...

ayame ftw · May 07, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If the needed changes were easy to settle upon, they would have been made a long time ago. The changes that were made months ago were at player suggestion. The changes back to 8v8, and other changes, also were at player suggestion. And the ultimate design changes will also be suggested by players, but by all players with a wide variety of opinions. (You can see the differences of opinion in this very thread.) In the end, some sort of middle ground will be sought, and captured, to make HA the best that it can be for the majority of players.

thats all good with me lol, lets find the middle ground:
600 people vote no to kill count
6 people vote yes to kill count
....

Plague · May 07, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

I haven't been through HA in months, but I will say this:

When anyone from ANet points out that the vocal majority isn't right, or that you are a single voice amongst many and that there's no "right way," what they mean to say is, "You might be right, but we're sure that we are." You won't get much of anywhere just pointing out the obvious, because the obvious is mere speculation in the eyes of the self-informed.

Lorekeeper · May 07, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

i was a patient man before i played this game, now i fear my powers of patience have reached superhuman proportions! hehe

i guess for those who didnt have patience before they played this game, definately have some now!

if only i could apply this same patience to my lovelife... ANYWAY back to studying!

on topic...

Anet, before you make any decisions on HA, could you pretty please let us know what kind of ideas you are considering? I can assure you that if you put forth kill count to us before it was implemented we could have avoided these few months of frustration.

Another benefit of revealing the possible new changes to us before implementation is that we will share some responsibility over what happens with you guys. Instead of people then posting accusations that you guys ''suck'' if anything goes wrong, everyone will have to remind themselves that they had some part to play in the results or at least we had the opportunity to identify a problem before it was put into the game.

a big issue for me and i think many other HA'ers is that the whole concept of the kill count in a three way fight is bad and if we knew about it before it was implemented we might have been able to tell u guys to avoid it.

but then again, everything is clear as glass in hindsight.

just a suggestion of mine... ive posted some ideas on alternative map mechanics in the HA poll thread if you are interested...

anyway i really must get back to my revision. exam tomorrow!

lorekeeper

masteroflife · May 07, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

another good way to avoid bad updates is DO NOT MAKE IT DOUBLE FAME OR DOUBLE FACTION. this way we can avoid the pver who have no idea how to pvp come in and make HA SEEM like a success when it's really not. If there is going to be a update. simply say new mechanics in HA this weekend and don't try to promote it. people who actually care will try to find out. people who don't care at all shouldn't find out.

Death_From_Above · May 07, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We're busy.
There, I've said it.
All kidding aside, I want you to know that we don't--I don't--dismiss your concerns one bit.

? Izzy seemed to do that though on a radio station, and why is it you keep on claiming kill count has been rather succesful when clearly no one else seems to agree with this. That seems to be rather dismissive to me sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We have a few designers who are looking at HA as they are able. But there are other assignments that they must also fulfill. Like me, they have more than a single obligation to the company. We're not shuttling HA off to the dark reaches of attention, but it's obviously not at the top of the list. We've done some changes, make some tests, listened to players, and we're listening to them still. But HA is one part of a very large game, and one facet that we've spent quite a bit of time on over the last few months, as I'm sure you'd agree.

? again. But you dont even need to look very deep into HA to find the main problems with it. Also, 12 months almost before you fix problems i think is just sadly too long. We are aware that you have more than one obligation but i feel that is no excuss for leaving HA in the state which you put it in for so long. Its like almost saying, i have an obligation to lay my bed so because of it im not going to do any house work for 5 months. Its just doesnt cut it. I would also like to comment on the point you made about carrying out some tests and listerning to players. If i were honest with you, those test i wouldnt even say you could count them as tests. 6v6 and 8v8 for example, when you brought 8v8 back you brought with it kill count which no one asked for on the test weekend.

Therefore the test was made invalid because people came on for the first day, saw you hadnt done what they asked for and left again. Next, players asked for the removal of 6v6 and it took very long for that to come into effect, and players asked for 8v8 with no kill count. Never saw that happening. Basically, yes you spent time on HA but you went about it all wrong ignoring the advice of your players. All the changes and tests you did amounted to really nothing as look at where we are now.

The return of 8v8 was not based on the tests i believe as if you saw infact less people were playing 8v8 during that period than 6v6 with a record number of 2 districts at peak times sometimes. Its was due to the fact players still campaigned for 8v8 because they knew 8v8 with no kill count would rock. If you have seen or not on other threads on the HA section in relation to the even, many players did not play HA during the event because it still sucked. You basically spent time on HA and thats all. No one asked you to, all we asked for was the removal of kill count and 8v8 with stable mechanics untill you figure something out like kill count so this is no reasonable excuss to put it lower on your list i feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The subject of HA is not closed; the decisions are not final; the configuration is not set in stone. But yes, I'm going to say "Please be patient," because that's what's needed now.

And how much patient do we have to have, i had patients, alot of it infact but that all evapourated after 6 months of anets neglection in terms of what the player majority wanted for HA. I have a question for you Galie, do you honestly think its fair for players to be waiting almost 12 months for simple basic changes to be done to HA. Its not like were asking you to give us the world or something. It was a simply basic update, its like a child asking his father for water and the father says have patients when he has a whole bucket full of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Riiight, Alleji, and we all know the HA community was all buttercups and rainbows before we "broke it." *searches wildly for a rolls eyes emote* Settles for a smilie.

Well exactly, it was all buttercups and rainbows and we even got free grass and land with it too. HA was basically perfect, although not as elite as the propchie days it was still very good with factions. Skill was promoted alot, 80 percent skill 20 percent build. When anet joined the scene it became 90 percent skill 10 percent build.

I never had to come onto the forums to complain because i often found if a problem arrose anet fixed it or players worked and countered it. You could actually learn from HA, the more you played the more you learnt, the learning curve was never ending especialy with an ever changing meta. But then Anet came along *disapointed smily*
Good intentions, bad results, denial and betrayal and thats how we end up with the HA we know to day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The HA community is not "The HA community;" it's really many smaller groups, call it "The HA communities," if you will. All players have a strong opinion about what's good and what's right and what needs to get changed--sooner rather than later--in Heroes' Ascent. Keep in mind we listen, but keep in mind that the player base will not make the final design decisions. The design team is looking at HA, and I do believe, as I said earlier, that changes will come. But you should know that the changes may not be 100% what you're wanting; not 100% what you think is best. That's because there are tens of thousands of other HA players, and every one of them has an opinion, and there honestly isn't a single "This is absolutely the right way to go" path.

So why the need for change when something which was here worked if you know you wont be able to please everyone. Wouldnt that be the official middle ground? Ye of course there are many HA players, but you cant say this theorm applies when a majority of them say 9000 out of the 10000 want kill count dead and other things back like alter capping. Its like saying 7/8 ths of a country vote for a Conservative goverment and 1/8 vote for a Democratic one. We dont go, oh lets find the middle ground and so elect some different leader.

Your clearly not going to be pleasing anyone. This is exactly what anets problem is, because they believe player oppinion is almost never correct they assume the right way to go is not the right way to go, izzy clearly showed this when he was interviewed on that radio station a while ago. It also depends what you class as a HA player, someone who does HA casually or someone whos hardcore HA. This theory obviously appears to work wonders as it certainly drove many HAers out of HA, am i wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If the needed changes were easy to settle upon, they would have been made a long time ago. The changes that were made months ago were at player suggestion. The changes back to 8v8, and other changes, also were at player suggestion. And the ultimate design changes will also be suggested by players, but by all players with a wide variety of opinions. (You can see the differences of opinion in this very thread.) In the end, some sort of middle ground will be sought, and captured, to make HA the best that it can be for the majority of players.

No, the middle ground will be sort for the minority of players because if you look. Although many players like those on this forum and the HA section have varying ideas they all have similarities such as get rid of kill count. Bring back alter capping and so on.

This is probly why you implimented 6v6, because it seemed to be the middle ground as so many people got it wrong saying oh you have RA you have GVG so have a 6v6 arena. Fact is, it does not please the majority it just pleases the minority and i believe that is something that will not change. Also, the changes would be easy to settle upon but anets making it seem like it will not be and thats where frustration comes in from players. When 6v6 first came out we all asked for 8v8 back.

That came 9 months later. When kill count came, we all asked for Alter capping back or kill count to be removed. These changes which are on such high demand dont seem hard to impliment to me to be honest as they obviously get implimented eventually so making a descion should not at all be hard it should just be alot faster.

One last thing, i was just curious as to why it has taken so long for the HA community to get any information from anet regarding the current state of tombs. Many players seem to have got the impression you have just ignored us and avoided us so i just wanted to clear this controvousy up and ask basically if there were any reasons for this great wall of silence which has grown between the HA community and anet. Almost like stalin and the iron curtain.

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Oh i love melodrama. Wheres the popcorn? Seriously folks....comparing Anet to Stalin...

All this self-deprecation and "oh pity me, im a HAer, and Anet is mean to me" bullshit needs to go.

Mistakes were made, mistakes will continue to be made.

The only way the relationship between Anet and its players will thrive is if its a give and take.

Anet is not your slave. Anet is not subject to your every whim. If anyone is the dictator, its US. We, the players. Anet bows to us. They coddle the players and take the time to listen to even the stupidest ideas. -.-

Alleji · May 07, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Riiight, Alleji, and we all know the HA community was all buttercups and rainbows before we "broke it." *searches wildly for a rolls eyes emote* Settles for a smilie.

Relatively speaking, it was. Of course, HA wasn't perfect, but it certainly was in a much better state than it is now.

Quote:

The HA community is not "The HA community;" it's really many smaller groups, call it "The HA communities," if you will. All players have a strong opinion about what's good and what's right and what needs to get changed--sooner rather than later--in Heroes' Ascent.

And what relevance does this have? Yes, "the HA community" is not absolutely unified. But are you trying to say that there is some large unseen majority in "the HA community" that I'm not aware of because I only know a small part of it from the inside?

That is not true. When I actually used to be an active member of that community, I'd say I was exposed to the bigger part of it one way or another. Outside the group of players I played with on a regular basis, I chatted with people in ID1 and faced many of the same teams in halls every night. Sometimes I pugged during a time of day when I don't normally play and talked to different people and faced different teams in HoH. I also used to spend a lot of time in the HA section of this forum and read other forums, before they died out. You can't raise any kind of "limited exposure" or "fractured community" arguments against that.

And everybody agrees on some points. For example, I've only ever met a handful of people who liked 6v6 (and out of those, most weren't HA regulars). Right now, I don't see anyone who likes kill count, other than Syra, and few people who like relics in HoH. Yet, there is no easy or clear solution.

Quote:

*searches wildly for a rolls eyes emote*

I agree with 100% you on that one, though. This forum really needs a rolleyes smiley.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil joo

Edit: You need to come chest run with me tonight bro.

Vanquisher title is more up my alley, tbh :P

Kyp Jade · May 07, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

In my opinion however, kill count maps are the lesser problem, skill balancing is a large issue right now. Three times this weekend My teams have fought a 20 minute match on burial mounds or underworld vs some really decent rt spike team (man that build is defensive, though most teams suck and get rolled), we lose, and we catch up to them by unholy temples, and man do we roll them 3-0 on the relic run because they arent prepared for a relic run.

This wouldnt be a huge problem either if there were no skips, because most non-balanced teams would never get to the gold maps, and almost never make it to halls.

/end rant
Stop skips
Balance skills
Do whatever you want with the mechanics, I just play balanced and adjust for the maps.

savage vapor 33 · May 07, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

This is a little off topic, but along HA lines, is there anyways to make rank mean a little more something? I mean overtime people will be getting higher ranks and so on and so forth, but now with the double fame weekends coming and going, a bambi and even a wolf mean dittily squat.

I'm just wondering if there is anything Anet could do to maybe give rank more meaning?

Randomway Ftw · May 07, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Reverting HA back to the OLD will do nothing good for it. It probably would be even more stagnant than it is now with kill count. There are just too many newly introduced defensive skills that would make holding just as bad as 3,2,1. With all these new skills I always thought a bunch should be withheld from certain PVP game play based on the area. Since that won't happen why be bothered with these threads? ANET knows what has been done to GW, and what needs to be done, GW2...

New skills that make holding worse? The paragon skills were nerfed, maybe anet should actually balance the game instead of destroying game modes to cover up imbalances.

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

New skills that make holding worse? The paragon skills were nerfed, maybe anet should actually balance the game instead of destroying game modes to cover up imbalances.

And how many more classes and skills must continually be nerfed before you realize that that game format itself is broken?

Randomway Ftw · May 07, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

And how many more classes and skills must continually be nerfed before you realize that that game format itself is broken?

Every skill in the game ten times over. If you actually would have played halls, you would know that after the paragon nerf, holding was fine.

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Every skill in the game ten times over. If you actually would have played halls, you would know that after the paragon nerf, holding was fine.

Refresh my memory, before 6v6 was implement, what was the most pressing HA issue?

Tea Girl · May 07, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Refresh my memory, before 6v6 was implement, what was the most pressing HA issue?

ai... ah... ai... aiway? beee...bbb.... bspike holding? rann.... rank discriminations?

eh... what mechanisms?